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Suggestion of new rating system (ELO like)
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Do you agree with the proposed change?
Hell, yes!!
32%
 32%  [ 25 ]
I dunow
16%
 16%  [ 13 ]
No let´s keep the percentage system
50%
 50%  [ 39 ]
Total Votes : 77

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Darius van Duyn



Joined: 03 Jan 06
Posts: 32

Location: Prague, Czech republic

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 9:56 am    Post subject: Suggestion of new rating system (ELO like) Reply with quote

Hi, I am not a veteran member of Spielbyweb, but I went through couple games. I would suggest a change of rating system, which will add much more attractivity to SBW gaming. Actual percentage system has 2 main disadvantages: it does not consider the number of players and skill of players taking part in current game. Every single man in SBW knows that its much easier to win a game of 2 Tikal rookies comparing to win a merciless fight of 5 Wallenstein veteran heavy-hitting players. Nevertheless, both winning players get 100 percent as a win to their rating.

What I suggest is to create a system similar to chess ELO, where every player has a floating rating. Thus a rating for each game will be counted from the ratings of players taking part in it.

Simply - when a strong player will win a game with weak ones, his rating wil rise only a little. When a player will beat heavy-weight veterans, his rating will rise very high.

I would upkeep a system of having an ELO rating for each game separate and a rating for the whole server overall for all games. Than I will know exactly who am I challenging for a game and how tough my opponents are, and a guy who will beat few sitting ducks will not have as high percentage rating as a hero who will get through a heavy struggle brainstorming game of 5 demigods Razz
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eratos



Joined: 24 Nov 05
Posts: 16


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't play here for rating - I play here because I like to play.

An Elo rating system such as you describe brings with it the potential to segregate gamers (1800+ ratings only - no noobs - etc) which I find to be a bad thing. Even without this, some people with a high rating may not wish to play against underrated players (read: players who have a strong grasp of the game in real life, but have never played on this site, so are rated as a complete newcomer) - for fear of losing ratings points.

My solution to this? Don't give people ratings Very Happy Just play.
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RyanMC
SBW Developer


Joined: 13 Sep 05
Posts: 344

Location: Draper, UT USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think it would just increase the number of abandoned games. If people are worried about their rating then the site becomes one where its really easy to just stop playing a game if you are about to lose a large number of ladder points. Not something we need here I don't think.
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seamusk



Joined: 05 Feb 05
Posts: 21


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: ratings Reply with quote

I think ratings systems are good for encouraging folks to get better at a game. So I'd support that.

As for the concern about people leaving games, the way to resolve that is by punishing them for doing so within the ratings system.

The problem of high ratings players avoiding games with low rated players is legitimate. On the other hand, I know from other sites that I avoid playing low ranked players (they are always welcome to voluntarily join my games) primarily because I don't want to beat them too badly and discourage them. It is helpful when you are learning a game to have an easy means to avoid imbalanced games. So there are costs and benefits in this sense.
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HappyProle
SBW Developer


Joined: 28 Oct 05
Posts: 409

Location: Salt Lake City, UT

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vote would be for no rankings.
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Big Bad Lex



Joined: 16 Oct 05
Posts: 114

Location: Epsom, UK

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Less is more.

Super whizzy rating systems might work best for the Chess world but there are many gamers here who wouldn't understand nor need an enhanced stats-fest (me included).

The current system may not truly be an accurate measure of achievement but it lets you know how much an opponant has played and what their strike rate is. IMHO thats more than enough.
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efreeman



Joined: 11 Aug 04
Posts: 36

Location: Philadelphia suburbs, PA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Such a system works very well on the Puerto Rico PBW site and I think such a system could work very well here.

I see it as a benefit where people can set up games for the type of game they desire. Whether it be to limit how high a rating can join, so experts don't beat up newbies in a game or limiting how low a rating can join, so beginners "learning" moves don't factor in a game among experts.

Eric
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Golux13



Joined: 14 Jul 05
Posts: 209


PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've expressed my feelings about ratings and rankings before and at great length, so I won't reiterate them in depth here. However, I was disappointed to see that the poll did not include "Who needs ratings?" as an option.
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BennyB



Joined: 29 Jul 04
Posts: 2


PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 5:19 am    Post subject: Ratings Reply with quote

ELO ratings would be a good improvement but I think a system to prevent games being abandoned would be great too. Ticket to Ride online uses a system whereby all users have a "karma" rating which ranges from one to six. If they play 20 or so games without dropping then their karma increases and eventually hits six. If they drop a single game it then goes back to zero.

This means it's possible to create your own games that have your own karma as a minimum. So if I have karma of three then only players with at least that karma would be allowed to join my game. It's a great deterrent.

Ben
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Alashar



Joined: 08 Nov 05
Posts: 112

Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think ELO ratings would be a vast improvement over the current rating system. If it's not too much trouble, perhaps the current system could be maintained and the other added, for those who prefer the current rating system. The problem of people abandoning games does need to be addressed if a new system is added. The "karma" system is an option. Or perhaps the person abandoning the game could be assessed a double loss. For those who don't care about ratings, they would be free to ignore them just as they are now. Still, care must be taken to not artifically limit who can play with whom. I think a solution can be found that would satisfy the great majority of us.
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chaosbreaker



Joined: 25 Feb 05
Posts: 16

Location: Los Angeles, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanMC wrote:
Yeah, I think it would just increase the number of abandoned games. If people are worried about their rating then the site becomes one where its really easy to just stop playing a game if you are about to lose a large number of ladder points. Not something we need here I don't think.


Ryan , you are right that such a system will increase the number of abandoned games but only slightly.

I am a proponent of the ELO ranking system because it is a proven system. I am sure that you can make your own ranking system that is better than ELO but the time to create and test it will be enormous. ELO system is even better if paired with a tournament system like the one used on littlegolem.net

I also believe that a good ranking system will make SBW a more attractive place to play games. In an email correspondence with Dave Dyer of boardspace.net (real time abstract strategy games site), told me that his internship at tantrix.com (real time abstract strategy game site for Tantrix) taught him that what gets people to play at your site is:

an AI player – people will play games with an AI player even when there is a large community of players
good ranking system – people want to know how good they are doing


Here is a list of thing you may want to do if you want to deal with abandoned games.

1) AI or script that takes over a â€údead beat” player.

At pr-game.net, has a script that takes over when a player abandons a game. The script is a simpleton but at least allows game to finish.

2) game creator determines the penalty for abandoned games when a game is created.

At goldtoken.com, when a game is created, the moves per time period, and penalty is set by the game creator. Thus one could create a game with the option of a move per 1, 3 or 7 days, and if not made that specfied time the player loses turn or loses game. Tournament games are preset at one mover per 3 days and lose game if not played in time. Not all this applies to SBW since most games at goldtoken.com are 2-player.

3) A system that keep track of abandoned games.

daysofwonder.com at game creation, a minimum karma to join a game is set. One's karma is determined by ratio of games finished and abandoned. Ludagora.net allows one to create a game and with the requirement of number of finished game that determined by half of the number of games that the game creator finished. Thus if I finished 10 games of Medina, I am able to create a Medina game that requires you to have finished 5 games of Medina to join my game.
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RyanMC
SBW Developer


Joined: 13 Sep 05
Posts: 344

Location: Draper, UT USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a very unique perspective of the ELO ladder system as it pertains to multiplayer online board games. I maintain, admin, and code for an online settlers site with more than 38,000 members that uses the ELO system for all our ladder games. I also know the headaches that come with such a system. We have a karma system(play again rating) along with a drop/quit system that records all games that don't finish correctly, but as ladder points become important there are a good number of people that start to cheat. You will end up with games containing all the same person trying to pad their stats. You will end up with more dropped games, not slightly more, but a lot more.

I have run the site I mentioned for almost 3 years now, and have tried to implement lots of different ways to deal with the problems that the ELO ladder brings. None of them fix it. I wouldn't think of removing it from Sea3D because it is a huge part of the draw and I think it does make the site better. That being said, I also know the amount of man hours it takes to keep that kind of a site running well. I know the pure amount of time our server takes keeping the ladder maintained. We have nightly regens, we have huge amounts of data to crunch all day long. The type of system resources needed for that kind of work would not run on anything other than a true dedicated server (believe me we tried).

I think as a pure idea adding an ELO system to SBW would be awesome. And perhaps a simplified version could work. I also in some ways hate to see the fun loving, easy going atmosphere that SBW has diminish. I think adding in a ladder would hurt that atmosphere. Even if a given player chooses to ignore the the ladder completely and play for the fun of it. Other players in those games will become upset when they make sub optimal plays that "gives" the win to a "less deserving" player.

In reguards to your other comments. A script/bot/ai pose problems to any true ELO ladder. A true ELO system requires that any points gained by a player are taken from another. ELO works best, and was designed, for 2 player games, but has been modified to handle multiplayer. applications. When you add in bots/ai you have the problem of inflating or deflating peoples ranks due to the "simple" bots. You can't take the points from the bot, because they are not really part of the ladder. You could take them from the player that quit, but that alters ratings by not having the skill of the player used throughout the game. The only way to I have found to keep a ladder integrity where it should be is to allow real people to replace the abandoned players.

Anyway, I am not really for or against a ladder, it has pros and cons. I just hope that everyone that is advocating for the rating system realizes the drawbacks and problems it will cause as well as the bonuses it brings.

Edited to remove quote
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chaosbreaker



Joined: 25 Feb 05
Posts: 16

Location: Los Angeles, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RyanMC,

Pardon me if I was being presumptious. Sad

Had no idea the difficulty of implementing and maintaing a seemingly simple ranking system.
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Darius van Duyn



Joined: 03 Jan 06
Posts: 32

Location: Prague, Czech republic

PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I well respect opinions of all members of this discussion, they all effectively brought almost all pros and cons of rating system, so I think there are not many more things to say.

I just want to highlight one feature of implementing a rating system: in my opinion it will significantly boost prestige and overall attractivity of SpielByWeb as a gaming server amongst gaming population. There is a lot of players who just want to play-and-go and these do not care about stats at all. But there is also a lot of those, who who want to be a part of a complex rating system, in which they can compare their skills with others in a relevant system with exactly set rules.

With the introduction of this system, many players will appreciate SBW as complex thing, not just occassional play-and-go server. At the end, I want to say, why not to upkeep current percentage rating with implementing of ELO rating at thesame time Very Happy
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eratos



Joined: 24 Nov 05
Posts: 16


PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Similar to a previous argument, but hear me out - suppose this situation.

SpielByWeb implements Puerto Rico.

Some wekes pass in which many players hit the magic 1800 Elo rating number.

Those players start wishing to play "expert" PR players, so request that only 1800+ Elo rated palyers join.

An established Brettspielwelt player visits the site, with a Huge ranking form that site. They can't join the expert game on this site. In fact, it takes so long to catch up with the required ranking to play in expert games, that they give up and go back to playing solely on Brettspielwelt.

Segregation based on rating is bad. How to prevent segregation based on rating? Have no rating.
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